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PARALLAX  »  UFOLOGY & AERIAL PHENOMENA  »  Sightings & Case Files  »  Roswell at 50 -- the file, the reports, and why the story keeps changing
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Roswell at 50 -- the file, the reports, and why the story keeps changing
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TrustNo1
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From: [you first]
#33▸ Posted: 14 Mar 1999, 17:23 EST
Oh, how convenient. The witnesses are "unreliable" so the whole thing collapses. Do you understand that discrediting witnesses is EXACTLY what you would do if there was something to cover up?

You have crashed material. You have bodies. You have a retrieval. The first thing you do is sow doubt about the people who saw it. You plant the false documents. You muddy the record. By 1999, the witnesses are so compromised that nobody believes them anymore.

That's the point. That's always been the point.
Curator_EU
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From: Bristol, UK
#34▸ Posted: 15 Mar 1999, 09:14 GMT
The philosophical problem here is more interesting than the forensic one. A case that hinges on the credibility of its witnesses is only as strong as those witnesses.

And these witnesses are not strong. They are weak. They are secondhand. They are contradictory. They are located at the edges of events, not at the center.

What was remarkable was how long this case was sold as something it was not. It was sold as forensically sound when it rested entirely on memory and later accounts. That is not methodology. That is persuasion. The real question is how we let this happen.
-- Curator
MUFON_Gail
Field Researcher
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From: Ohio, US
#35▸ Posted: 15 Mar 1999, 11:44 EST
To TrustNo1: I understand the appeal of that argument. I do. But it doesn't hold.

If the government was going to discredit witnesses, they would not have allowed Frank Kaufmann to be PROMOTED as a credible source in the first place. They would not have let his documents circulate. They would have buried him from the start.

Instead, WE -- the UFO community, the researchers -- WE promoted Kaufmann. WE vouched for him. WE put him in books and on television. And now we have to admit that we did not do our due diligence.

That's on us. Not on them.
-- Gail
Anonymous Coward
anon
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User ID: 12481412
From: a VPN, probably
#36▸ Posted: 15 Mar 1999, 13:02 EST
I'm a researcher. I've been in this field for fifteen years. I can't put my name on this because I know what will happen to my reputation in the community.

But I have to say it: I looked at the Kaufmann documents myself. I had them examined. They are forged. The inconsistencies are obvious. The provenance is impossible to establish. And the fact that we, as a community, pushed this material into the mainstream without basic verification is a failure of our standards.

The same is true of Anderson's story. It does not survive scrutiny. The timeline is wrong. The details contradict his own earlier accounts.

We have been sloppy. And it costs us.
Occams_Razorback
Resident Skeptic
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From: Chicago, US
#37▸ Posted: 15 Mar 1999, 15:33 CST
Let's be precise about what we're left with:

One: the debris field near Corona in July '47. That happened. Project Mogul explains it. Sound.

Two: Glenn Dennis's nurse story. Unverifiable. No nurse. Gone.

Three: Kaufmann's documentation. Forged. Contaminated.

Four: Anderson's account. Internally contradictory. Secondhand to uselessness. Gone.

Five: Marcel's original statement. This one holds up better than the others. But even here there are problems -- his credentials get inflated in the retellings.

So the strong case for crashed saucers now rests on the least-bad secondhand account from a man whose memory had thirty years to drift. That's not a case. That's the absence of one.
TrustNo1
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From: [you first]
#38▸ Posted: 16 Mar 1999, 08:22 EST
You're all accepting the false documents at face value and assuming they were forged by the WITNESSES. But what if they were inserted? What if the record was contaminated on purpose?

The fact that Kaufmann's materials don't hold up does not prove Kaufmann lied. It proves the record was compromised. And who compromises records? The people with the most to gain from confusion.

You're playing their game. You're accepting their board.
MUFON_Gail
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From: Ohio, US
#39▸ Posted: 16 Mar 1999, 10:15 EST
To TrustNo1: at what point do we apply Occam's razor to the cover-up theory itself?

You're now positing: (1) a crashed extraterrestrial craft; (2) a fifty-year institutional cover-up across multiple administrations; (3) the deliberate insertion of forged documents into the UFO community's hands; (4) the coordination of false witness accounts; (5) the framing of our own researchers.

That's not a simpler explanation. That's the most complex explanation possible. And it gets MORE complex the more we try to make the evidence fit.

Sometimes the simplest answer is: the witnesses are unreliable, the documents are forged by people seeking attention, and there is no recovered craft.
-- Gail
DesertGlass
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From: Phoenix AZ, US
#40▸ Posted: 16 Mar 1999, 11:42 MST
I'm going to say something that's going to get me run out of the community.

I think Mogul explains it. I think Project Mogul, looking back now that these witnesses have collapsed, actually explains it better than anything else. The debris was unusual. The secrecy was justified. There were no bodies. There was no craft. There was a classified program people didn't understand, and a small rural community that filled in the gaps with imagination and, later, with men who saw a chance to be important.

I didn't want to believe that. I wanted there to be something more. But honest reckoning means looking at what's actually there, not what you want to be there.

I'm sorry to everyone I sold on the crashed saucer story over the years. I was wrong.
-- Glass
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