 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#41▸ Posted: 16 Mar 1999, 14:28 CST
The honest conclusion:
The case for crashed saucers at Roswell was never as strong as it was sold. The witnesses are weak. The documentation is contaminated. The strongest account we have is Jesse Marcel's, and even that is secondhand to us, degraded over time, missing corroboration.
Project Mogul explains the debris. The 1997 report tries, badly, to explain the body sightings as dummy tests. The rest is inference and hope.
This does not mean nothing happened. It means what happened was classified, unusual, and then explained -- just not in the way the community wanted.
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 Super Moderator ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 22,910 Joined: Jun 1998 From: Bristol, UK |
#42▸ Posted: 16 Mar 1999, 19:33 GMT
The deepest lesson here is not about Roswell. It's about how we construct knowledge from weak sources.
When you desperately want something to be true, you lower your standards for evidence. You promote weak witnesses. You accept dubious documentation. You interpret ambiguity as confirmation. And eventually the case collapses, because it was never built on solid ground.
This is a lesson for all investigation, not just UFO cases. The will to believe is the enemy of truth-telling. It always has been. And Roswell, in 1999, is finally teaching us that lesson in a way we cannot ignore.
-- Curator |
 Field Researcher ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 8,044 Joined: Aug 1999 From: Ohio, US |
#43▸ Posted: 17 Mar 1999, 09:51 EST
I want to close this particular arc with something.
The case at Roswell did not fail because the government was clever. It failed because we were not rigorous. We accepted witnesses we should have questioned. We promoted documents we should have verified. We built a cathedral on sand and then blamed the wind when it fell.
That's a hard thing to admit. But it's the only honest thing to admit.
Jesse Marcel's account remains the most credible piece of testimony we have. But it is not enough, by itself, to sustain the crashed-saucer hypothesis. And I think we all know that now. We can move forward from here, or we can keep pretending. I choose to move forward.
-- Gail |
 Field Researcher ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 8,044 Joined: Aug 1999 From: Ohio, US |
#44▸ Posted: 14 Nov 2001, 21:47 EST
Okay. We've spent fifty years on this. Here's what actually settles: the debris is almost certainly Mogul. Not almost probably -- almost certainly. The material, the timeline, the classification level, the panic in 1947 when they realized what they'd found. It all hangs together. There WAS a cover-up. But it was a balloon. A classified balloon program to listen for Soviet bomb tests. Not a spacecraft. Not a craft at all.
The bodies: nothing. No remains. No verifiable chain of custody. Dennis's nurse -- gone. Kaufmann and Anderson -- both caught in fabrications. Marcel is the only one left standing, and Marcel describes "craft" material but never claims he saw bodies. And the official explanation for the bodies, the dummy drops, is anachronistic half-sense. It doesn't hold.
So where does that leave us?
Gail |
 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#45▸ Posted: 14 Nov 2001, 22:33 CST
Both things are true. That's the trick nobody wants to accept. The mundane explanation is strong. The debris is Mogul. The bodies are unsubstantiated. The physics all points to a balloon. And ALSO: the government lied repeatedly over fifty years. Disc, then weather balloon, then Mogul, then dummies. Four stories. Each time they said "this is the truth now." Each time they were either lying or correcting a previous lie. That's institutional rot. That's the real story. Not aliens. Rot.
Chicago, IL |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 2,660 Joined: Apr 2000 From: Phoenix AZ, US |
#46▸ Posted: 15 Nov 2001, 00:15 MST
I've been on this since 1978. Spent twenty years looking at photographs, driving out to the ranch, talking to people who swore they were there. I wanted to believe we'd caught something nonhuman. I still want to believe it. But Gail is right. The debris settles. Mogul. It's boring and it's real.
The bodies don't settle. They just dissolve under pressure. And the government's story keeps changing, which is the only thing about it that stays consistent. So I'm here at fifty-two, having driven across the desert too many times, knowing the most likely answer is the most boring one, and also knowing the people who told us the official story were liars. Both. And I don't know which upsets me more.
phoenix |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 380 Joined: May 2000 From: Lincolnshire, UK |
#47▸ Posted: 15 Nov 2001, 08:22 GMT
The debris case is settled. I've reviewed the Mogul documentation three times now. The weight specifications match. The reflector geometry matches. The classification level matches the panic in '47. Rancher finds unidentified debris, the military collects it, realizes it's a classified balloon program, issues a disc press release in confusion, then doubles down on the weather balloon story because admitting to Mogul would mean admitting they were listening for Soviet tests.
It's solid. No ambiguity. The debris is NOT a spacecraft. It is a balloon train with instrumentation. A classified, expensive, necessary one. That's the wrapping of the story. The bodies are a different problem, and a much weaker one.
Reg |
 Super Moderator ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 22,910 Joined: Jun 1998 From: Bristol, UK |
#48▸ Posted: 15 Nov 2001, 14:05 GMT
What strikes me, reading this from outside the US system, is how thoroughly the institutions eroded themselves. In Britain or France this would likely have been a quiet classified disclosure decades ago. "Yes, a Mogul-type balloon. Yes, classified. Sorry for the confusion." Boring, settled, institutional credibility largely intact.
Instead the American apparatus said four different things across fifty years. That is not protecting national security. That is institutional panic becoming institutional habit. The American public is right to distrust the file. The government gave them four separate reasons to.
London |