Anonymous Coward  (unregistered) User ID: 87635716 From: a VPN, probably |
#49▸ Posted: 15 Nov 2001, 16:33 EST
I'm new to this. I came here thinking maybe there was something real. The more I read, the more I see: the debris case is actually pretty convincing for Mogul. The timeline fits, the physics fits, the classification level fits. So why are people still talking about it?
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 Field Researcher ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 8,044 Joined: Aug 1999 From: Ohio, US |
#50▸ Posted: 15 Nov 2001, 17:02 EST
Because people spent fifty years being told four different stories. Because the government's own credibility is the unreliable narrator. Because you can't lie four times and then ask people to believe you on the fifth try. And because the bodies still don't have an explanation that fits the dates. Mogul explains the debris. Mogul doesn't explain why people independently reported bodies, or where those reports came from, or why the dummy explanation is so anachronistic and convenient.
So the debris closes. The credibility doesn't. That's why we're still here.
Gail |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 2,660 Joined: Apr 2000 From: Phoenix AZ, US |
#51▸ Posted: 15 Nov 2001, 19:44 MST
The bodies are the scar tissue. You can believe in Mogul and still have the bodies question you. The bodies don't require aliens. They just require honesty, and honesty is what disappeared in 1947.
Maybe they were nothing -- a story that grew in the retelling. Maybe a conflation with a later crash or a medical evacuation. Maybe men who wanted to matter. But "we don't know" and "we'll lie about it forever" are not the same answer, and the government kept choosing the second one.
phoenix |
 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#52▸ Posted: 16 Nov 2001, 02:11 CST
Here's the denominator: the mundane explanation is strong AND the official handling was genuinely terrible. Both simultaneously. And that's the whole lesson. Not "aliens exist." Not "case closed." It's "the boring version is probably correct, and the people who managed the boring version were liars, and therefore the file cannot close on credibility grounds even if the physical facts settle."
That's the actual story. That's what we keep arriving at and then not knowing what to do with, because it satisfies nobody. The believers want craft. The skeptics want it tidy. And the truth is boring-plus-dishonest, which is the one shape nobody finds satisfying.
Chicago |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 380 Joined: May 2000 From: Lincolnshire, UK |
#53▸ Posted: 16 Nov 2001, 12:47 GMT
And note the structure of it: Mogul is precisely what required the cover-up in the first place. The military found a classified balloon program, panicked about the classification, and issued false statements to protect it. So the government's behavior in 1947 was rational, given the stakes -- Cold War listening posts for Soviet tests. Defensible.
But it was not honest. And fifty years of dishonesty is not a defensible response to one moment of justified secrecy. The secrecy expired. The lying didn't.
Reg |
 Super Moderator ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 22,910 Joined: Jun 1998 From: Bristol, UK |
#54▸ Posted: 16 Nov 2001, 17:22 GMT
What I keep coming back to: the American system was designed to eventually tell the truth. Freedom of Information. Declassification schedules. Congressional oversight. The system SHOULD have produced a clear statement in 1975, or 1985, or 1995.
Instead it produced four conflicting stories across fifty years. The government knew the truth. It had the authority to tell it once secrecy was no longer justified. And it chose not to, repeatedly. That's not a failure of the system to keep secrets. That's a failure of the system to be honest when it no longer needed to keep them.
London |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 2,660 Joined: Apr 2000 From: Phoenix AZ, US |
#55▸ Posted: 17 Nov 2001, 01:16 MST
I'm looking at the file now and I see Mogul. I see the debris. I see the classification level. I see the military's rational panic in 1947. And I also see fifty years of lying. Both.
And I'm fifty-two years old and I've driven across the desert too many times to believe there's a fifth story that will make it all clear. This is the fifth story. Mogul. And I believe it about the debris, because the debris is boring and the boring answer usually wins. But I won't pretend the bodies are settled, because the people telling me have lied four times already, and "we were lying about the dummies too" would just be lie number five.
phoenix |
Anonymous Coward  (unregistered) User ID: 39920354 From: a VPN, probably |
#56▸ Posted: 17 Nov 2001, 09:41 EST
So... the file stays open?
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