 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 2,660 Joined: Apr 2000 From: Phoenix AZ, US |
#25▸ Posted: 25 Nov 1997, 17:26 MST
I'll concede the autopsy film is a hoax. Santilli's not getting my trust back. But that doesn't mean no bodies were recovered. Hoaxes don't disprove genuine witness testimony. They just add noise. And the witness testimony -- whatever its problems -- is inconsistent with a balloon train. You don't need "alien autopsy" footage to ask: what did they actually see? And why does the Air Force's explanation require years of retroactive timeline adjustment?
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 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#26▸ Posted: 26 Nov 1997, 10:15 CST
Here's what I think happened. In 1947, something came down on the Foster ranch. It was a Mogul balloon train. The debris was classified. The Air Force panicked, issued a press release saying "flying disc," then retracted it with "weather balloon." That part is solved. That part is closed.
But at some point -- maybe immediately, maybe in the 1980s retellings -- the narrative about bodies got appended. Either genuine confusion, or conflation of different events, or embellishment, or a mix. And the Air Force, being the Air Force, decided that introducing crash dummies from 1953 was less damaging than admitting they'd ever lied at all.
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 Field Researcher ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 8,044 Joined: Aug 1999 From: Ohio, US |
#27▸ Posted: 26 Nov 1997, 13:47 EST
One year and the "Case Closed" report is the official last word -- fifty years to the month after the original incident. The Air Force statement: Mogul for the debris, crash dummies for the bodies, "time compression of memory" for the discrepancies. It's a coherent package if you squint. But coherence and truth aren't the same thing.
The file isn't closed. It's been filed away with an official stamp. And the strangeness remains: witnesses describing small bodies, no explanation that actually fits the dates, and an Air Force perfectly happy to move on.
case files |
Anonymous Coward  (unregistered) User ID: 75772363 From: a VPN, probably |
#28▸ Posted: 26 Nov 1997, 16:33 CST
What we know after fifty years:
1. A balloon train came down on the Foster ranch. Mogul. Moore reconstructed it.
2. The debris was classified and then covered with a weather-balloon lie.
3. The autopsy film is a 1990s hoax and should be forgotten.
4. The bodies are not explained by the dummies explanation, and the Air Force knows it.
5. The distinction between the debris question and the bodies question is now clear.
Is it aliens? No. Is it settled? No. Is it honest? Getting there, maybe.
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 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 2,660 Joined: Apr 2000 From: Phoenix AZ, US |
#29▸ Posted: 27 Nov 1997, 14:51 MST
Fifty years later and here we are. The government says it was a balloon, and some dummies they never mentioned before, and false memories. And I'm supposed to accept that as closure.
Fine. The debris was a balloon. I accept Moore's engineering. I accept the trajectory. But don't ask me to accept that witnesses describing bodies were actually remembering dummies from six years later. That's not science. That's bureaucracy. The question of the bodies remains open, and I'll keep asking.
not satisfied |
 Field Researcher ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 8,044 Joined: Aug 1999 From: Ohio, US |
#30▸ Posted: 14 Mar 1999, 14:32 EST
I've spent the last six months going through every deposition, every interview transcript, every affidavit we have on the '47 incident. I need to say this plainly: we have a serious problem.
The case that was sold to the public in the early '90s rested on a handful of "key witnesses." I believed in them. I defended them. But I can no longer do that in good conscience.
Start with Glenn Dennis, the mortuary director. The nurse story -- the one about the foreign debris and the small bodies -- has been a centerpiece. And it is completely unverifiable. We have Dennis's account. We have nothing else. No nurse was ever identified. No one else at that base hospital remembers any of this. I've made calls. I've sent letters. The nurse does not exist in any record we can find.
That's a problem.
-- Gail |
 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#31▸ Posted: 14 Mar 1999, 15:08 CST
This is the Texas sharpshooter problem, and it's been staring us in the face for years.
You take fifty testimonies, half of them secondhand, most collected decades after the fact, and you mine them for the ones that fit your theory. Then you ignore the rest. Then you hold up those five or six and say "THIS is the strongest case for crashed saucers."
No. This is the strongest case for the will to believe something. That's all.
The debris was real. We know that. But debris is not a spacecraft. Debris is debris. And all your strongest body-witnesses are either anonymous, unverifiable, or both.
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 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 2,660 Joined: Apr 2000 From: Phoenix AZ, US |
#32▸ Posted: 14 Mar 1999, 16:41 MST
I don't like what I'm reading here. I don't like it at all.
I've been collecting materials on Roswell since 1989. Clippings, interviews I conducted myself, a map of the impact zone. I believed we had witnesses. I believed we had a case.
But Gail is right, and it kills me to type that. The Kaufmann documents -- and I have copies, they're in front of me right now -- they look forged. The typeface is wrong for the period. The testimony collapses under the smallest pressure. Gerald Anderson's story is the same way. You pull one thread and the whole thing unravels.
We were sold something. And we bought it.
-- Glass |