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PARALLAX  »  UFOLOGY & AERIAL PHENOMENA  »  Sightings & Case Files  »  Roswell at 50 -- the file, the reports, and why the story keeps changing
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Roswell at 50 -- the file, the reports, and why the story keeps changing
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DesertGlass
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From: Phoenix AZ, US
#17▸ Posted: 23 Nov 1997, 19:14 MST
Fine. Fine. The foil was a balloon. The sticks were balsa. Moore has the engineering chops and he walked the ground. The Mogul explanation for the debris is... credible. I don't like it, but I grant it. I grant it.

But -- and this is where I'm not budging -- the bodies are a separate question. The debris is one thing. The witnesses who saw small, gray bodies, that's another thing. And some of those stories predate the Air Force dummy drops by years.
not going anywhere
MUFON_Gail
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From: Ohio, US
#18▸ Posted: 24 Nov 1997, 08:22 EST
This is the distinction that matters. The debris field near the Foster ranch -- Mogul covers it. The "flying disc" press release in 1947 -- that's panic, misidentification, bureaucratic reflex. The debris being hauled back to the base and then retroactively called a weather balloon -- that's institutional self-protection, not proof of a cover-up.

But the body descriptions, the mortuary story, the nurse who supposedly came forward -- those aren't explained by a balloon train. Moore's work is important. It's honest. But it doesn't touch the second question. We have to hold debris and bodies as two separate problems, or we'll never think clearly about either.
keeping the case files honest
Anonymous Coward
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#19▸ Posted: 24 Nov 1997, 11:03 CST
Materials list for a Mogul balloon train, Flight 4 configuration, based on Moore's notes:

-- Neoprene balloon envelopes (multiple)

-- Wooden frame (balsa)

-- Aluminum foil radar reflector

-- Kraft paper tape, printed flower pattern (for structural reinforcement, not "alien script")

-- Acoustic sensors (classified design, naturally)

-- Parachute (nylon)

-- Batteries

That's what came down. That's what Brazel found and hauled in. The Air Force knew what it was. Called it a weather balloon because saying "we crashed an experimental acoustic spy balloon" was worse than "weather balloon" in 1947.
radar_Reg
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From: Lincolnshire, UK
#20▸ Posted: 24 Nov 1997, 13:45 GMT
The Ramey photograph is instructive here. July 1947, General Ramey holds up debris at the base -- the famous one. People have gone looking for "spacecraft materials" in that photograph for decades. Ufologists, skeptics, everyone. What do we see? Foil. Paper tape. Wood sticks. Exactly what you'd expect from a classified acoustic reflector array. Not tungsten. Not "unknown alloys." Not memory metal that unfolds itself. Balsa and kraft paper and an aluminium-coated radar reflector. Mogul.
-R
Occams_Razorback
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From: Chicago, US
#21▸ Posted: 24 Nov 1997, 17:11 CST
The crash-dummy timeline is genuinely bad, and I say that as someone who thinks Mogul nails the debris. The dummy drops -- the ones the Air Force is now pointing to -- those were mostly 1953 and after. Holloman, Wright Field. The witness testimonies about bodies come from 1947, or were collected later but describe 1947. Saying "you saw a crash dummy in 1953" doesn't explain a statement about 1947. That's just bad history. The Air Force knows it. Everyone knows it. They're hand-waving with "time compression," and it's the weakest thing in the report.
calling it straight
MUFON_Gail
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From: Ohio, US
#22▸ Posted: 25 Nov 1997, 09:34 EST
The "alien autopsy" film -- the one Ray Santilli distributed in 1995 -- is almost certainly a hoax, and I'll say that plainly as someone in the field. The technical evidence is against it. The proportions are wrong for the Roswell-era witness descriptions. The autopsy technique is too clean, too familiar to anyone who watched a medical documentary in the 1990s. And the "original footage" is conveniently unavailable -- only Santilli's copy, only after decades in a vault. That's not how authenticated evidence works.
case files
Anonymous Coward
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#23▸ Posted: 25 Nov 1997, 12:17 CST
Santilli's film came out in 1995. Within two years, every frame has been dissected. The proportions don't match historical descriptions. The surgical instruments are period-generic. The lighting is studio. The "original footage" -- allegedly shot in 1947 on 16mm -- was supposedly in Santilli's hands, but nobody has ever authenticated it. Not the Library of Congress. Not a single independent archivist. It's a production. A good production, but a production.
radar_Reg
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From: Lincolnshire, UK
#24▸ Posted: 25 Nov 1997, 14:52 GMT
The autopsy film poisoned the well. That's what galls me. A competent engineer like Moore comes forward with actual data, actual trajectory analysis, actual materials science, and half the conversation is still tied up in debunking a video hoax from 1995. The film gave ufologists something to defend that shouldn't have been defended. It gave skeptics an easy target. Meanwhile the actual debris question -- which Mogul answers well -- gets crowded out by footage that's obviously not authentic.
-R
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