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PARALLAX  »  ESOTERICA, ENERGY & PROPHECY  »  Energy Work & Healing  »  Biofield / "energy" -- what would actually COUNT as evidence? (no woo, no sneering)
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Biofield / "energy" -- what would actually COUNT as evidence? (no woo, no sneering)
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Priya_99
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Joined: Apr 1999
From: Cambridge, UK
#17▸ Posted: 21 Sep 1999, 21:40 GMT
Since the word decoherence is now being thrown like crockery, let me slow it down. Tegmark calculated extremely short decoherence times for superposed ion positions in the warm wet brain. That matters. It is not a skeptic talking point, it is an actual physical constraint. If Orch-OR cannot answer it, Orch-OR fails.

Hameroff answers by changing the level of the proposed coherence, by arguing that microtubular structures might shield or organise the relevant states differently. I do not know that he is right. I know that "warm wet brain" is a beginning of an objection, not the end of the conversation. The believers who say "quantum" as incense are useless here. The skeptics who say "decoherence" as a padlock are only slightly better. Do the numbers or stop using the word.
Cambridge · mind your decoherence times
CajalKid
New Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Feb 2002
From: Boston, US
#18▸ Posted: 28 Oct 1999, 18:22 EST
Grad-student delurk, probably a mistake. Priya is right that Tegmark is not a spell you cast to end the argument, but the burden is still very heavy. Neurons are messy. Temperature, ionic noise, protein collisions, constant exchange with the environment. You do not get delicate quantum states for free just because the phenomenon you want is delicate.

Also microtubules already have plenty to do without becoming the post office for telepathy. Cytoskeleton first, castle later. I am not saying impossible. I am saying the prior is not friendly.
Cajal drew first
Baldwin_Bea
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From: Norwich, UK
#19▸ Posted: 03 Dec 1999, 13:11 GMT
CajalKid gives us the honest physical prior. Good. Now do the same honesty on the psychological prior. If a subject arrives expecting the test to be hostile, if the practitioner experiences the protocol as contempt in a lab coat, if the experimenter wants a null the way a hungry person wants bread, then we have not merely added noise. We may have changed the system.

That does not rescue every failed result. It makes the failed result more specific. A phenomenon that only survives trust may be weak, inconvenient, and useless for the Randi stage. It may also be real in the same way rapport is real: not a force, but a condition under which a force-like effect appears.
Norwich · conditions are not excuses
Jo_Gentry
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Joined: Feb 2000
From: Zürich, CH
#20▸ Posted: 08 Jan 2000, 19:26 CET
Bea is circling what the consulting room knows without liking the word "knows." The patient does not bring a symptom into a neutral box. The room participates. The analyst participates. A dream told on Thursday may have begun in the analyst on Tuesday and arrived in the patient as if by private weather. This is not metaphor in practice; it is what the work feels like when it is alive.

Priya wants a carrier. I understand the desire. But the psyche is not cargo moving through a wire. It is relation before it is content. If you remove relation to make the test clean, you may be cleaning away the very object you hoped to measure.
Zürich · the room participates
RhineReader
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From: Northampton, UK
#21▸ Posted: 13 Feb 2000, 16:10 GMT
Working parapsychologist here, which is an excellent way to disappoint every side at once. The ganzfeld literature is the right comparison for this thread because it gives both camps ammunition. Bem and Honorton 1994 looked promising. Milton and Wiseman 1999 looked much less promising. The combined picture is neither "psi proved" nor "nothing happened." It is a small effect that hates being handled.

File drawers matter. Optional stopping matters. Sensory leakage matters. So does the odd fact that the better labs sometimes get results before everybody learns the procedure too well. If Bea wants corrosion, she can have it. The corrosion is the field.
small lab, large headache
Occams_Razorback
Resident Skeptic
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Posts: 16,720
Joined: Apr 1998
From: Chicago, US
#22▸ Posted: 21 Mar 2000, 12:32 CST
RhineReader, thank you for saying file drawer before I had to. Small effects that hate being handled are exactly where humans fool themselves best. The statistical machinery was invented because our intuitions are awful at this scale.

That said, I admit the phrase "everybody learns the procedure too well" bothers me in the useful way. If the first run has the effect and the replication loses it, I normally call that artefact. Bea calls it a prediction. The thread has not earned a verdict, but it has earned my discomfort.
Chicago · discomfort is not evidence, but it is a lead
Anonymous Coward
anon
(unregistered)
User ID: 80358821
From: scanner at work
#23▸ Posted: 26 Apr 2000, 01:05 GMT
Since everyone wants PHOTOS, here is actual aura evidence. Kirlian fingertip plate from a fair in 1997, mine on left, my girlfriend on right. Mine has flares all around because I was ill that week and hers is smooth because she does yoga. This is exactly what Carol is talking about, the body field showing before symptoms. Say moisture if you want but it knew.
Kirlian fingertip plate from a 1997 fair booth, posted as aura evidence. Beautiful, but the controls are doing all the work.
K7RADIO
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Posts: 10,110
Joined: Dec 1998
From: Arizona, US
#24▸ Posted: 01 Jun 2000, 09:48 MST
Kirlian is high voltage plus moisture plus pressure plus film chemistry. It is gorgeous. It is not your soul holding still for a portrait. If your finger is damp, pressed harder, warmer, or surrounded by slightly different humidity, the corona changes. The machine is real. The interpretation is where the carnival tent goes up.

Do the fair-booth test properly: dry the fingers, control pressure, randomise which subject is which, hide the health status from the reader, repeat across weeks. My bet is the aura reader becomes a humidity meter with a scarf.
build your own controls
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