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PARALLAX  »  ESOTERICA, ENERGY & PROPHECY  »  Energy Work & Healing  »  Biofield / "energy" -- what would actually COUNT as evidence? (no woo, no sneering)
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Biofield / "energy" -- what would actually COUNT as evidence? (no woo, no sneering)
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Occams_Razorback
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Joined: Apr 1998
From: Chicago, US
#1▸ Posted: 18 Feb 1998, 13:00 CST
Serious thread, no sneering, I mean it -- I am asking the question straight because I am tired of having it badly. What would actually COUNT as evidence for a "biofield"? Not "I felt better," not "my practitioner sensed my liver." A claim that can FAIL. The cleanest test anyone ever ran is still Emily Rosa's: a nine-year-old, written up in JAMA in '98, asked therapeutic-touch practitioners to say which of their hands her hand was hovering over, behind a screen. Twenty-one practitioners, 280 trials, 44% correct -- below chance. The Cochrane people looked at distance healing and came back with a shrug. So here is the floor: tell me the protocol you would accept as a fair test of YOUR claim, in advance, that you would concede if it came back null. If you cannot name one, we are not doing science, we are doing church, and church is fine, it is just down the hall.
the 5% · name the test that could lose
Sedona_Raine
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From: Sedona AZ, US
#2▸ Posted: 26 Mar 1998, 15:30 MST
I will take that seriously because you asked it seriously, and I will start by giving you Rosa -- her experiment is clean and the result is real and any honest practitioner has to sit with it. But look at what it tested: "can you, on command, with no relationship and no intention and a child's hand you do not care about, detect a static field through a screen." That is not the claim. The claim is about sustained intention inside a relationship that has had time to form, and the moment you blind it and make it on-demand you have removed the two ingredients I would say ARE the mechanism. I am not dodging -- I know that sounds exactly like dodging. So here is a protocol I would concede on: pre-registered, my regular clients not strangers, a physiological marker we agree on first (HRV, wound-healing time), my real sessions versus sham sessions I believe are real. If the marker does not move across enough pairs, I will post it here and shut up about it. That is the deal. Few of the labs will run it, because it is expensive and slow and unglamorous, which is its own small tell.
Sedona · blind it and you may have blinded the mechanism
Rey_Sayers
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Posts: 2,710
Joined: Oct 1999
From: Maryland, US
#3▸ Posted: 02 May 1998, 18:40 EST
Adding the part everyone argues about without reading. The US government funded psi research, openly once it was declassified, for eighteen years -- SRI, then the program people now call Stargate. Targ and Puthoff, Ingo Swann, Pat Price. When they finally killed it in '95 they commissioned a review: Jessica Utts (statistician) concluded the effect was statistically robust and replicated; Ray Hyman (psychologist) agreed he could not find the methodological flaw that explained it away and fell back on "we have no mechanism, so I withhold assent." Read that exchange before you post in this thread. You do not have to believe a remote viewer ever found a thing. You DO have to explain why the statistics survived a hostile government statistician, and "they wasted eighteen years on noise" is not an explanation, it is a flinch. For the record I will not discuss operational specifics and I will not be drawn on MKULTRA beyond saying: read the released files, the appetite was real and the ethics were not.
Maryland · read the Utts-Hyman exchange, then talk to me
Priya_99
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From: Cambridge, UK
#4▸ Posted: 07 Jun 1998, 10:15 GMT
If -- IF -- any of this is real, then the only question worth my evening is the SUBSTRATE, and I notice nobody on the believing side wants to be pinned to one. So I will be. Orch-OR: Hameroff and Penrose put coherent quantum processes in the microtubules of neurons. The standard objection is Tegmark's -- a warm wet brain decoheres in femtoseconds, far too fast for cognition, never mind anything non-local -- and it is a GOOD objection and I will not wave it away the way my side usually does. But "the numbers are hard" is not "the door is shut," and Bohm's implicate order is at least a coherent picture in which non-locality is not spooky, it is the ground floor. My point to the empiricists: ask me for a mechanism and I can at least name candidates that live in physics. My point to the love-and-light table, and I will be blunt: every time you answer "what is the substrate" with "it is beyond matter," you hand Razorback the win and you pick my pocket while you do it. Mind your decoherence times. Some of us are trying to make this fundable.
Cambridge · what is the SUBSTRATE
Baldwin_Bea
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Joined: Jul 1999
From: Norwich, UK
#5▸ Posted: 13 Jul 1998, 14:50 GMT
Methodological, because that is the fight under the fight. Razorback wants a fixed effect that holds still to be measured by a meta-analysis. But two of the best-documented features of this whole field are the EXPERIMENTER effect (believing experimenters get effects, disbelieving ones get null, with the SAME protocol) and the DECLINE effect (results fade as a paradigm is repeated). Mainstream reads those as proof of artefact, and sometimes they are. But consider that a relational, non-stationary phenomenon would produce EXACTLY those signatures -- it would couple to the observer and it would not sit still for repetition, because nothing alive does. A meta-analysis assumes the thing being measured does not care that it is being measured. The interesting hypothesis here is that it does. That is not unfalsifiable; it predicts the experimenter effect should track the experimenter's actual relationship to the subject, not just their "belief," and nobody has run THAT properly. There is your test, Occams, and it is more interesting than Rosa.
Norwich · a thing that couples to the observer will not hold still
Jo_Gentry
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Joined: Feb 2000
From: Zürich, CH
#6▸ Posted: 18 Aug 1998, 20:00 CET
And the data you all keep saying does not exist has existed, recorded, for eighty years, in a literature none of you read because it is not in a physics journal. Freud wrote "Psychoanalysis and Telepathy" in 1921 and then sat on it because he was terrified of what it would do to the movement's respectability -- read his correspondence with Ferenczi, the man was spooked by his own data. Jung built synchronicity out of exactly these observations. In the consulting room the effect is mundane and constant: the patient who dreams the analyst's news the night before it is spoken, the counter-transference that arrives before a word. We do not call it psi because we have a duller word, the "field" of the analytic relationship, but it is the same animal Rey's people were trying to weaponise and Priya is trying to find a microtubule for. The lab destroys it because the lab removes the two things that generate it: genuine stakes and the unconscious. You cannot put rapport in a Ganzfeld booth and you cannot pay a stranger to care.
Zürich · it is in the case literature, you are simply not reading it
K7RADIO
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Posts: 10,110
Joined: Dec 1998
From: Arizona, US
#7▸ Posted: 24 Sep 1998, 09:00 MST
Honest broker here, leaning your way Razorback but not the whole way. There IS a real, measurable bio-electromagnetics and the believers are right to point at it -- the heart throws an EM field you can read several feet off the body with a SQUID magnetometer, magnetocardiography is a real clinical instrument, the body is electrically noisy and that noise is structured. THAT is physics and it is measurable and it is genuinely a little uncanny the first time you see the trace. Here is the line, and I am drawing it as a friend to both sides: everything from there to "scalar biofield healing at a distance" is the woo riding in on the back of the real measurement, borrowing its respectability and paying it nothing. Show me a field. I will measure it all day. Show me an EFFECT of that field at a distance, beyond what the inverse-square law allows, and now you owe Priya a mechanism and Razorback a protocol. The measurement is real. The leap off it is where I get off the bus.
K7 · the field is real, the leap off it is not
moonlit_carol_72
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Joined: Mar 2001
From: Kent, UK
#8▸ Posted: 30 Oct 1998, 11:20 GMT
Dear ones, I have read all of this with such love and I want to say the gentle true thing none of you will: you are all looking for the field in the matter, and the field is not IN the matter, the matter is in the FIELD. You will not magnetometer your way to it any more than you can weigh a kindness. The ones who taught me -- the gentle ones who wait -- do not heal through a microtubule, they heal because love is the carrier and the body remembers being loved. I do not need Rosa's screen. I have held a frightened woman's pain and felt it go out like a tide. travel safely, all of you, even the cross ones. ☾
☾ love & light ☾ · the matter is in the field
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