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PARALLAX  »  CRYPTOZOOLOGY  »  World Cryptids & Folklore  »  Continental "big cats" -- escaped exotics or something older?
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Continental "big cats" -- escaped exotics or something older?
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Hexenring
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From: Bavaria, DE
#1▸ Posted: 14 Sep 1998, 19:30 CET
Continental "big cats." Every few years a black panther in Bavaria, the Beast of somewhere in France, a puma in the Harz that the authorities deny and the farmers do not.

The lazy answer is escaped exotics, and sometimes that is exactly right -- a bored aristocrat's pet, a folded circus, a private collection nobody will admit to keeping. i grant all of that freely. But the FOLKLORE is older than the exotic-pet trade by centuries: the werewolf trials, the village "beast" that takes a lamb and is seen for one season and then is not, the big black cat that is bad luck to name.

i do not claim it is a cryptid. i claim the report PATTERN predates its own easy explanation, and a pattern older than its debunking earns a column in the spreadsheet. The folklore is data if you read it as data.
Bavaria · folklore is data if you read it as data
Anonymous Coward
anon
(unregistered)
User ID: 75519133
From: upland, three hundred sheep
#2▸ Posted: 07 Nov 1998, 22:40 GMT
Look I dont know what you lot want from me. Found one of my ewes in the lower field three days ago, half eaten and dragged through a fence. Not a dog -- I know what dogs do and this was different, the bite clean and deep, not the tearing you get off a dog, and it moved the carcass a fair way which a dog would not bother with. Took a photo on a disposable but its not much, the light was going. The vet wrote "dog attack" which is nonsense and the police did not want to know.

Now Im told to get plaster casts of -- what exactly? The grass was all torn up, no clean print. I have three hundred head and a farm to run, I cannot spend a week playing detective. But if it happens again Ill try for a proper photo. Just saying it was not a dog.
Cascade_Cat
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From: Oregon, US
#3▸ Posted: 31 Dec 1998, 08:47 PST
Hexenring, you want to know what is killing the sheep in Bavaria and France? Stop talking about what the authorities deny and start reading what the ground says. A big cat -- any big cat -- is the easiest large predator on the continent to confirm or rule out, no disrespect to anyone here. A track does not lie: round pad, no claw marks, that heel structure, a child can learn it in an afternoon. If a panther is taking your stock it is leaving scat the size of a man's thumb, caching kills with the throat bite and the fur plucked clean in a way a dog never does, scraping trees to mark. These things are VISIBLE.

To the farmer above: I am sorry about your ewe and I believe you it was not a dog, but "no clean print" is the whole problem, not the proof. Next time rope the carcass off and look at the soft ground at the approach, not the churned-up kill site. A cat kills like a cat kills -- there is no ambiguity in a throat puncture or a cached haunch. Get me one good track and I will tell you in a minute what you have.
Oregon · a track does not lie
Pyrenees_Pierre
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From: Toulouse, FR
#4▸ Posted: 23 Feb 1999, 09:30 CET
The Anglophone board discovers continental cats and treats it as new -- but we have documented this for 240 years. The Bete du Gevaudan was no escaped exotic; it was the template. What the English histories file as "a wolf" or "hysterical peasants," the French archives show as a systematic predation problem that needed a royal hunt and left real dead livestock.

The modern pattern is duller and stranger: the gendarmerie "felin" reports -- the Massif Central, the Pyrenees, the Vosges -- get an actual official file, a vraie enquete, and then silence. The losses are reported up the chain, the farmers have photographs and veterinary records, and the narrative quietly becomes "un chien errant" or "a circus escape." The documentation is not denied. It is simply not pursued. That is not cryptozoology, it is administrative closure, and it is a different problem with a different solution: find the files.
Toulouse · trouvez les dossiers
Occams_Razorback
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Posts: 16,720
Joined: Apr 1998
From: Chicago, US
#5▸ Posted: 18 Apr 1999, 14:47 CST
The trouble with reaching for something older is that it does away with the need for it. A leopard escapes a breeder upstate -- this happens, I will not pretend otherwise. A domestic cat at three hundred yards with no scale reads as a mountain lion. A big dog goes through a flock and leaves the signature of something with teeth, which is almost anything with teeth. Those are the denominator -- the common, mundane generators that eat 95 percent of the sightings without folklore at all. And the genuine escaped exotic IS the real 5 percent, which is exactly why you never need a relict species or a phantom.

Want me to believe in something older? Give me what Cascade asked for: the kill signature, the scat, a cast track, a hair that does not match the local fauna -- something a lab can hold. A blurry photo is a Rorschach; we see in it what we brought. Until then it is an escaped cat or a dog, which is boring, and also real, which puts it a long way ahead of the alternative.
Chicago · the boring 5 percent is the real one
Hessdalen_Lars
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Joined: Apr 1999
From: Trøndelag, NO
#6▸ Posted: 11 Jun 1999, 20:15 CET
To the farmer: your photograph and your kill site are exactly what we need -- not perfect, but real data from the field, and you are doing better than you think. I have logged the lights here in Hessdalen for five years and I can tell you the answer never comes from the argument, it comes from the record.

Here is the method. Buy a cheap motion-triggered wildlife camera and set it on or near the next carcass -- a predator returns to feed, and you will have the sequence. Put a ruler or a coin in every frame for scale. Note the time, the weather, the ground. Keep the failures, they tell you about the camera and the site. Two weeks of that beats two years of this thread. Cascade and Occams are right that we need evidence; they are wrong to scold a working man for not having it to hand. Give him the tools instead. We do not solve it by talking. We solve it by logging it.
Trondelag · do not argue it, log it
Hexenring
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Joined: Nov 2000
From: Bavaria, DE
#7▸ Posted: 04 Aug 1999, 19:00 CET
Good. This is the thread I wanted -- the trackers and the skeptics doing the work the folklorist cannot, and I concede all of it. Cascade is right that a real cat leaves a signature a child can read. Occams is right that an escaped exotic is real and covers the cases with a body behind them. Lars is right that the answer is a camera and a ruler, not an argument. Granted, every word.

Here is the only thing I actually claim, and it is not a monster. The sightings are older than the exotic-pet trade by six hundred years, and that does NOT mean breeding panthers in medieval Bavaria. It means there has always been a STORY waiting at the edge of the cleared land -- the werewolf in the trial record, the phantom black dog on the parish road, the devil-cat in the woodcut -- a shape the mind keeps ready for the big predator at the treeline. When a genuine escaped leopard turns up now, it does not arrive into an empty mind. It pours into that six-hundred-year-old mould, and out comes a "Beast," described in the old grammar, half real animal and half inherited dread.

So you are right and I am right. The CAT is an escaped exotic, or a dog, or a house cat at distance -- ordinary, checkable, Cascade's department. The BEAST is what a frightened farming culture makes of a predator it cannot see clearly -- and that is mine. The folklore is not evidence of the animal. It is evidence of us, and that is the more interesting carcass to stand over.
Bavaria · folklore is data about the people, not the predator
Anonymous Coward
anon
(unregistered)
User ID: 44088228
From: upland, three hundred sheep
#8▸ Posted: 27 Sep 1999, 21:30 GMT
Right -- the forum fellow with the lights was correct, fair play to him. Put one of the motion cameras on the next carcass like he said, a lamb this time, and got a sequence. Posting the clearest frame. And before anyone gets excited: I think it is a dog. A big one, off colour, but the gait is wrong for a cat and there are claws in the soft ground by the gate, which the tracker woman said a cat does not show. So. Not my panther after all, probably. Felt a proper fool for about a day.

But here is what stops me letting it go entirely. The FIRST ewe, back in September, the bite was different and there were no dog tracks in ground that took mine clear as print. This dog did not kill that one. So maybe two things. Maybe I am wrong twice. Either way there is a camera on the field now and I write down what it shows, which is more than the vet ever did. Thank you for that much.
Motion cam, the lamb carcass by the gate, last week. A dog, I think. The first one was not this. -- (the sheep farmer)
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