 Member ◆◆ Posts: 640 Joined: Mar 2001 From: Wrocław, PL |
#17▸ Posted: 08 May 2000, 07:33 CET
That detail about losing track and it being elsewhere -- that's reported in other sightings too, I think. Not just Belgium. There's something about the triangle phenomenon that seems to produce this temporal discontinuity in the witness. It's in the SOBEPS summaries, if I remember. The craft doesn't seem to move smoothly. It seems to jump.
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 Super Moderator ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 22,910 Joined: Jun 1998 From: Bristol, UK |
#18▸ Posted: 18 May 2000, 16:22 GMT
Right, but be careful. That could be attention lapse. You look at a moving object, your eye tracks it, you blink, you lose position lock, your brain tries to reconstruct where it went, and you overestimate the distance it covered. That's psychology, not physics. A human witness who loses track for one second and sees something fifty metres away might have genuinely only looked away for one second, or might have lost track for five and not realized it.
-- Curator |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 1,720 Joined: Jul 1999 From: Toulouse, FR |
#19▸ Posted: 28 May 2000, 20:54 CET
True. But in aggregate, across dozens of independent witnesses, you get a clustering around that detail. One person might confabulate. Fifty people might be reporting the same real phenomenon. That's what SOBEPS tried to separate. Let me move the thread now to the 30/31 March night itself -- the definitive night. I want to lay out what we know happened that evening, hour by hour, based on the official record and testimony. If we can build a solid chronology there, we can examine the claims more closely.
30 March 1990, evening. Weather clear over Wallonia. Ground radar stations active. Standard operations. Witnesses in Eupen report the triangle at low altitude, approximately 19:00 local time. Gendarmerie dispatch receives multiple reports. At some point -- and here I need to establish the exact time -- the triangle appears on ground radar at Glons station.
-- Pierre |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 380 Joined: May 2000 From: Lincolnshire, UK |
#20▸ Posted: 08 Jun 2000, 10:33 GMT
Good. This is what I want to see. The exact sequence. What time do the witnesses report first contact? What time does Glons pick it up on scope? Are these simultaneous or sequential? If there's a fifteen-minute gap, that tells you something. If it's immediate, that tells you something different. Then: when do the F-16s launch? When do they get lock-on? When do they lose it? These times anchor the narrative. Without them, we're still in legend territory.
-- Reg |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 380 Joined: May 2000 From: Lincolnshire, UK |
#21▸ Posted: 18 Jun 2000, 14:27 GMT
Right then. I've been following this thread since November, and I think we need to slow down and talk about what the radar data actually says, not what we wish it said. The F-16 lock-ons on 30/31 March 1990 are the crux of the whole thing, aren't they? But a radar lock is not a visual sighting. A lock means the system found a return and tracked it. That could be many things.
I've got access to some declassified RAF stuff on anomalous propagation, and the Belgian wave sits right in the window where you'd expect AP to be most troublesome. You get a temperature inversion -- and Belgium in March can absolutely have one -- and a radar pulse bends. Bends hard. You get ghost returns, reflections off layers you can't see. The return looks like it's moving when it's just the inversion shifting.
That said, the Glons and Semmerzake tapes have been under scrutiny for ten years now. Meessen isn't some crank. Let's look at the actual data instead of trading hypothesis for hypothesis.
--Reg |
 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#22▸ Posted: 28 Jun 2000, 15:42 CST
Reg is right, and this is where I always come back. The Belgian wave is well-documented. I'll grant that without hesitation. But well-documented is not the same as well-explained. We have a few thousand sightings, most of which can be sorted into helicopters, ultralights, Venus on a clear night, and probably a handful of deliberate hoaxes. We have radar data that something returned an echo. We have one photograph that might be a model or might not be.
What we don't have is a smoking gun. And the radar data, when you strip away the drama, is mostly consistent with processing artifacts and propagation effects. The "accelerations" -- the ones that supposedly pull 2G or more -- those are exactly what you'd see if the radar was tracking two separate objects and the system glitched in between, or if you had a second-order derivative being misread as velocity.
Show me the raw tape. Show me that it's been handled with chain of custody. Then we can talk.
--O.R. |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 1,720 Joined: Jul 1999 From: Toulouse, FR |
#23▸ Posted: 08 Jul 2000, 16:03 CET
The raw tapes are in Brussels. SOBEPS has them. Meessen has analysed them in detail -- his papers are published, in French and in English, and he does not hide his methods. He looks at the recorded speeds and altitudes and says: some of the data cannot be easily dismissed as propagation alone. Not all of it. Some of it.
The 30/31 March intercept is the flagship. Two F-16s. Multiple lock-ons. The pilots reported visual contact with a triangular object, silent, with lights at the corners. The ground radar at Glons and Semmerzake were tracking returns in the same airspace at the same time. This is not one data point. This is a convergence.
I do not claim it was extraterrestrial. I do not claim it was a secret aircraft. But I claim the sceptical explanations have had nine years to settle the question, and they have not. Meessen's point stands: there is a residual phenomenon that deserves explanation beyond "anomalous propagation."
--PP |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 380 Joined: May 2000 From: Lincolnshire, UK |
#24▸ Posted: 18 Jul 2000, 16:48 GMT
Pierre, I'll read Meessen again -- I've got Meessen's published papers -- but I want to press on one thing. The F-16 pilots reported a triangle. The ground radar at Glons recorded a blip. Are we sure those are the same object? Because if the pilots were looking at something 50 miles away and the radar was picking up a layer inversion 10 miles north, we've just solved half the case.
That's not snark. That's the actual problem with correlating visual and radar data in a weather-unstable situation. The Belgian authorities never released a clear timeline saying "at 22:15 UTC, Glons radar saw X, pilot reported Y at the same location." They released it piecemeal. SOBEPS stitched it together. But the stitching is what's in question, isn't it?
I'm not saying Meessen is wrong. I'm saying the correlation matrix is messier than the believers want to admit.
--Reg |