PARALLAX · established 1995 · evidence first · no hoaxes · no threats · write the date down

PARALLAX

see it twice.
sightings & case files · the experiencers · cryptozoology · ancient anomalies · esoterica & prophecy · preparedness — an international community since 1995
PARALLAX  »  UFOLOGY & AERIAL PHENOMENA  »  Sightings & Case Files  »  The Belgian triangle wave -- F-16 radar locks, full chronology (sources in OP)
✎ Post Reply   « Sightings & Case Files
The Belgian triangle wave -- F-16 radar locks, full chronology (sources in OP)
Page 7 of 10   «125678910»
Occams_Razorback
Resident Skeptic
◆◆◆◆◆
Posts: 16,720
Joined: Apr 1998
From: Chicago, US
#49▸ Posted: 28 Mar 2001, 01:15 CST
Anon, you're committing the fallacy you're accusing others of. You're saying: "It's not ours, therefore it's not from Earth, therefore it's from space." But there's a step missing. We don't actually know it's not ours. We don't have complete records of all experimental military aircraft. Black projects exist. Classified technology exists. Misidentification of our own technology exists.

And Russia? The Cold War is barely over. We don't know everything they built either.

The point isn't "we must be cautious." The point is "multiple explanations fit the evidence." When multiple explanations fit, you don't eliminate the ones that are uncomfortable and declare the remaining one true. You say: the evidence doesn't distinguish between them.

That's not weakness. That's how thinking actually works.
Occams
darkroom_Pete
Member
◆◆◆
Posts: 1,320
Joined: Feb 2000
From: Ottawa, ON
#50▸ Posted: 08 Apr 2001, 03:45 EST
I want to return to the photograph because I think Anon is right about one thing: the photograph deserves serious analysis, and I don't think it's gotten it from the skeptical side either.

The Petit-Rechain photo shows something. Not nothing. Something. The corner lights are distinct. The central light is distinct. The geometry is consistent. This is not a blurry image. This is not easily dismissed.

But here's what the photograph cannot tell us: whether these lights are attached to a solid structure that the film cannot resolve, or whether they are four separate sources. It cannot tell us the distance of the object from the camera. It cannot tell us the size. It cannot tell us the speed. It cannot tell us the propulsion.

What it can tell us: something was there. It was photographed. It was real enough to register on film. It was unusual enough that the photographer felt compelled to photograph it.

That's not nothing. But it's also not proof of extraterrestrial origin. It's a mystery. And mysteries are allowed to remain mysteries.
Pete
Pyrenees_Pierre
Member
◆◆◆
Posts: 1,720
Joined: Jul 1999
From: Toulouse, FR
#51▸ Posted: 18 Apr 2001, 09:17 CET
I want to address the American's frustration directly, because I understand it. There's something in the Belgian Wave that feels like it should mean something. The scale is large. The evidence is real. The investigation was serious. And we still don't have answers.

But that's actually the correct answer: we don't know. Not "I don't know yet," but "the evidence, as it stands, does not provide enough information to determine the source of these sightings."

In my country, we accept this. We have mysteries. We investigate them seriously. We report honestly on what we found and what we didn't find. And we move forward without demanding that ambiguity resolve itself into certainty.

I think this is a European vs American difference. Americans want the mystery solved. Europeans accept that some things remain unresolved. Both approaches have value. But honesty requires admitting which one we're using.
Pierre
Curator_EU
Super Moderator
◆◆◆◆◆
Posts: 22,910
Joined: Jun 1998
From: Bristol, UK
#52▸ Posted: 28 Apr 2001, 14:33 GMT
There's a document that's been circulating among SOBEPS circles -- a summary of the radar data from the March 31st intercept, prepared by the Air Force and never officially released to the public. I'm told it's being reprinted in a new SOBEPS publication coming out later this year.

If that's true, and if it contains detail about the radar returns during the F-16 engagement, this could either clarify things or muddy the water further. I mention it because it suggests the Belgian investigation is continuing, not closed. They're still examining the evidence. They're still releasing new material.

Compare that to Phoenix. The official position is: nothing happened. No further investigation. No documents. No re-examination. Just: we're done talking about it.

Belgium respects the question, even if it doesn't have the answer. That's the difference.
Curator
Anonymous Coward
anon
(unregistered)
User ID: 90074887
From: a VPN, probably
#53▸ Posted: 08 May 2001, 19:22 EST
So new radar data is being released? Good. Maybe this will finally settle it. The F-16s had radar lock. The pilots saw something on their scopes. If the new data shows what they were tracking, and if it's not a known aircraft, then we have our answer.

I'm not asking for aliens to be the only explanation. I'm asking that if the radar data shows something impossible to identify, we don't dismiss it as a mystery. We call it what it is: evidence of something beyond our current classification systems. And the logical next step is investigation into whether that something is extraterrestrial.

But you're all acting like asking that question is somehow unscientific. It's the most scientific question there is.
Occams_Razorback
Resident Skeptic
◆◆◆◆◆
Posts: 16,720
Joined: Apr 1998
From: Chicago, US
#54▸ Posted: 18 May 2001, 00:44 CST
Anon, "beyond our current classification systems" and "extraterrestrial" are not the same thing. Something can be unidentified without being alien. It can be unidentified and terrestrial. It can be unidentified and ultimately explainable by something we didn't think to classify it as.

And yes, investigation is scientific. But investigation doesn't presume the answer before you start. Investigation follows the evidence. The Belgian Air Force did this. They investigated. They didn't conclude "aliens." They concluded "unidentified." That's what the evidence supports.

You're asking us to leap from "unidentified" to "extraterrestrial" without the evidence to support the leap. That's not science. That's guessing.
Occams
darkroom_Pete
Member
◆◆◆
Posts: 1,320
Joined: Feb 2000
From: Ottawa, ON
#55▸ Posted: 28 May 2001, 04:20 EST
I'm curious about this radar summary too. The March 31st intercept is the crucial moment -- that's when we have radar, visual confirmation from multiple sources, and fighter aircraft involvement simultaneously. If the new data clarifies what the radar was actually tracking, that could be important.

But I want to caution against expecting it to settle anything. Radar can show an object. Radar cannot always identify an object. If the radar shows an unidentified return, and the visual sightings match the radar track, we still have an unidentified object. We don't have an identified one.

The photograph, the radar, the eyewitnesses -- they all point to the same event. But they don't tell us what the event was. They tell us it happened. That's valuable. But it's not an answer.
Pete
Pyrenees_Pierre
Member
◆◆◆
Posts: 1,720
Joined: Jul 1999
From: Toulouse, FR
#56▸ Posted: 07 Jun 2001, 11:05 CET
The American keeps asking: "At what point does evidence add up to something?" And the answer is: it already has. The Belgian Wave is something. It's a documented phenomenon. It happened. It was investigated. Hundreds of people saw it. Radar tracked it. A photograph captured it. That is already something remarkable.

But "remarkable" is not the same as "identified." We can acknowledge the remarkable without claiming to know what it is.

I suspect the radar data, when released, will show what we already believe: there was an unidentified radar return. It doesn't match known aircraft. The fighter pilots pursued it. They couldn't identify it visually. The event ended. No explanation emerged.

That will be consistent with everything we know. It will also not prove extraterrestrial origin. It will simply confirm: something extraordinary occurred, and we don't know what it was.

And I think that is actually the most honest conclusion we can reach.
Pierre
Page 7 of 10   «125678910»
✎ Post Reply
PARALLAX · see it twice. · evidence first · write the date down · sources or it didn't happen
all times shown in the poster's local zone