 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 510 Joined: Mar 2000 From: Nazca, PE |
#1▸ Posted: 12 May 1998, 18:00 PET
The Nazca lines. And PLEASE, before a single person types it: not a runway. NOTHING lands on a line scratched two centimetres into desert pavement. i have given thirty years to these and "ancient runway" is the single most embarrassing thing ever said out loud about them.
what they ARE is harder and so much better. ritual pathways you WALK. water and fertility cosmology in a place with almost no water. a handful of astronomical alignments that hold up when you test them honestly, and a great many that do not, and the honest researcher reports both. the giant figures are laid out to be read from the surrounding FOOTHILLS, not from the sky -- which kills the "made for watchers overhead" idea stone dead, because the makers built them to be seen by people standing on the ground.
i will die on this hill, which is conveniently also where you get the best view of the hummingbird.
not a runway. never a runway. |
 Senior Member ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 4,890 Joined: Jun 1999 From: Leeds, UK |
#2▸ Posted: 27 May 1998, 16:41 GMT
Lorca, thank you for this. I have done experimental archaeology on the construction method -- stake and cord, the simplest technology there is. You mark your line with wooden stakes, string a cord, and have workers clear the dark stones to expose the pale ground. It takes weeks, not miracles, and the precision comes from care, not from flight.
How they made them is answered. WHY they made them is what matters, and you are right: it is about the land, about water, about moving through space with intention. Not about being seen from space. The "from the air" myth comes from Erich von Daniken and from people who have never actually been there. I have been there. You can see the lines from the foothills. You can stand on them. They are human-scaled, even when they are vast.
Adrian |
 Moderator · Asia Desk ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 14,002 Joined: Sep 1999 From: Yokohama, JP |
#3▸ Posted: 11 Jun 1998, 19:33 JST
I will add the geological fact. The lines survive because of the stability of the desert pavement itself. The dark stones are desert varnish -- iron and manganese oxides accumulated over millennia. The pale ground beneath is stable, compacted soil. Almost no rain means almost no water erosion; almost no wind to re-scatter the stones. The desiccation is the preservation.
This is why a line scratched two centimetres deep is still visible two thousand years on. Not because it is alien. Because the desert is stable and dry. Geology explains the preservation completely. The mystery is not in why they survive -- it is in why humans made them, and Lorca is pointing at the real answer.
mod_Kenji |
 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#4▸ Posted: 26 Jun 1998, 08:15 CST
The "seen only from the air" claim has to die. There are photographs taken from the foothills -- the lines are clear, the hummingbird is clear, the spider is clear. You do not need to fly to see them, you need to climb a hill, and the makers lived in those hills. They could see their own work.
The real question -- why make lines that large and elaborate if you can see them from the ground -- is genuinely interesting, and Lorca's answer is the sound one: you do not make them to be seen, you make them to be walked, as part of a cosmology about water and fertility in a place where water is precious. That makes vastly more sense than an alien landing strip, which never made sense and never will.
Occams |
Anonymous Coward  (unregistered) User ID: 31507991 From: a VPN, probably |
#5▸ Posted: 11 Jul 1998, 14:47 PET
I have to respectfully disagree with all of you. The lines are clearly made to be seen from above. How else would the makers know what they looked like? The figures are only really comprehensible from a great height -- the precision, the scale, the way they fit together. You cannot plan something like that from the ground. You would need to see it from above to be sure it came out right.
That means they had the technology to fly, or they had help from beings who could. That is the only logical conclusion. I am not saying aliens, necessarily. I am saying some ancient civilisation had technology we do not credit them with, and the lines prove it.
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 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 510 Joined: Mar 2000 From: Nazca, PE |
#6▸ Posted: 26 Jul 1998, 16:02 PET
You are standing on the pampa and you do not understand what you are looking at. Let me explain it simply.
I have walked the hummingbird. It is 93 metres long. When you are on the ground at the wing, or the body, or the tail, you can see the geometry perfectly well. You do not need to be above it. The makers were not stupid -- they understood proportion, they understood how to divide space. These were not primitives who could only conceive of a thing if they saw it from the sky.
The puquios, the underground aqueducts, connect to the lines. That is not made for the air. That is made for the earth, for water, for fertility. The "only comprehensible from above" argument is an insult to the people who made them. It assumes they were incapable of planning anything they could not hover over. THAT is the real fantasy -- not the lines, but your need to hand the credit to aliens or a lost high-technology for work that was done by skilled, intelligent human beings who understood their landscape.
lines_Lorca |
 Senior Member ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 4,890 Joined: Jun 1999 From: Leeds, UK |
#7▸ Posted: 10 Aug 1998, 17:28 GMT
The AC asks "how did they check their work." I will answer directly: with full-scale layout, with test figures, with geometric principles, with stake and cord dividing the space into sections, each section checked against the master design. This is how monumental work is built everywhere, by every culture.
You do not need to fly to verify a line. You walk it, you measure it, you compare it to the plan. The Parthenon was not planned from above the clouds. The pyramids were not. The Nazca lines were not. The assumption that anything large must have been made for viewing from above is backwards -- it assumes the purpose without evidence. Lorca is showing you the evidence: water, fertility, ceremony, walking. That is a complete explanation and it does not require flight.
Adrian |
 Moderator · Asia Desk ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 14,002 Joined: Sep 1999 From: Yokohama, JP |
#8▸ Posted: 25 Aug 1998, 03:14 JST
I want to be clear about one factual matter, because it keeps coming up: the claim that the lines are best seen from above is simply wrong. This is observable fact, not interpretation. There are photographs taken from the surrounding foothills in which the biomorphs are clearly recognisable. A person standing in the hills above the plain can see the geometry without difficulty, and the makers lived in those hills.
So there is no gap in the evidence that requires aircraft or intervention. The people made the lines; the people could see the lines from where they lived; the lines served the purposes Lorca describes. The geological fact is that they survived; the human fact is that they were made by human beings with human tools and human purposes. That is not a loss of wonder. It is the return of the credit to the people who earned it.
Kenji |