 Member ◆◆ Posts: 64 Joined: Jul 1997 From: Buffalo, NY |
#1▸ Posted: 19 Aug 1998, 09:12 CST
I've read enough UFO stuff to know most of it is balloons, weather inversions, aircraft, or outright fabrication. But I'm not going to pretend every single report is explainable. So here's the deal: I'll read in good faith if you each give me your ONE best case. Not a list. Not "and also this one." Your absolute strongest single incident, with your best argument for why it matters. I mean it. I'll actually read it.
night shift, genuine skeptic |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 380 Joined: May 2000 From: Lincolnshire, UK |
#2▸ Posted: 20 Aug 1998, 08:18 CST
RB-47, 1957. American B-47 bomber over Mississippi, multiple radar operators and pilots on board tracking something that accelerated from standstill to 1200 mph, matched their maneuvers, dropped in altitude below their capability. Simultaneous visual and radar sightings across multiple correlated platforms -- not one observer's opinion. Military witnesses with nothing to gain from lying, because they sure aren't allowed to talk about it officially.
What gets me is the instrumental data. I've spent my career watching radar scopes. That signature doesn't match anything in our inventory at the time. You can dismiss one witness. Hard to dismiss sensor agreement.
30 years on the scope |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 167 Joined: Jan 1996 From: Tucson, AZ |
#3▸ Posted: 21 Aug 1998, 07:25 CST
RB-47's a solid one. I'll second that. Before I give you mine, though -- Reg, you know what? I'm going to push back slightly. We need to be honest about what we don't know: atmospheric refraction, anomalous propagation on radar, the possibility the pilots saw a celestial body and the radar was picking up something else entirely. None of that invalidates the case, but it has to be in the footnotes.
My best is Tehran, 1976. Multiple independent military observers, controlled conditions, instrument failures that correlate with the sighting, maneuver performance that ground radar couldn't explain. But again -- caveat: some of those explanations are "we don't know" rather than "it can't be known."
backyard astronomer, southern sky observer |
 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#4▸ Posted: 22 Aug 1998, 06:31 CST
You're both describing "best cases," and I appreciate that. But let me say this clearly: the fact that we select these cases because they're hard to explain is itself a bias. We're survivorship. The hard cases survive filtering; the easily-explained ones drop out. That doesn't make the hard cases real -- it makes them hard to explain.
That said, coldfront asked for my best one. I'll give you Tehran 1976 too, because two independent observers with instrument panel anomalies is worth the read. But you have to start by acknowledging it could be misidentification of Venus with instrument malfunction -- and then ask yourself if that's actually less strange than the alternative.
statistics are not oracles |
 Field Researcher ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 8,044 Joined: Aug 1999 From: Ohio, US |
#5▸ Posted: 23 Aug 1998, 05:38 CST
I'm going to go a different direction. Not military radar stuff -- that's interesting but it's also classified and half the data's missing anyway. Cash-Landrum, 1980. Civilian witnesses, daylight, physical evidence. Betty Cash and Vickie Landrum encounter something over a Texas road that burns their skin and damages their car. Medical records. Radiation readings. No military security blanket, no "we can't talk about it" --
The thing that sits with me: why would they lie? They got nothing but harassment and medical bills. That's the case where the incentives point toward truth instead of away from it.
field investigator, twenty years |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 380 Joined: May 2000 From: Lincolnshire, UK |
#6▸ Posted: 24 Aug 1998, 04:44 CST
Cash-Landrum's solid, Gail. But you know why I stick with RB-47? The radar operators had every incentive to stay quiet and didn't anyway. They reported it up the chain. That takes more nerve than civilian witnesses after the fact.
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Anonymous Coward  (unregistered) User ID: 70611908 From: a VPN, probably |
#7▸ Posted: 25 Aug 1998, 03:51 CST
ALL OF YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT. They're ALL real. Every single sighting. The problem is you skeptics refuse to look at the pattern. You want one case, one incident, like the truth is modular. THE WHOLE ARCHIVE IS THE EVIDENCE. We're being visited, we've been visited for thousands of years, and people like coldfront don't want to see it because it would shatter their worldview. READ the records. STOP with the logic puzzles.
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 Member ◆◆ Posts: 64 Joined: Jul 1997 From: Buffalo, NY |
#8▸ Posted: 26 Aug 1998, 02:58 CST
Alright. I've got reading to do. RB-47 first, then Tehran, then Cash-Landrum. I'm not converting tomorrow, but you've all made a fair case that "best case" is worth distinguishing from "any case." I appreciate the honesty about the caveats, too. Reg, Occams, Gail, vega -- that's the kind of argument I can actually work with. Anonymous, I hear you, but the logic puzzles are kind of the whole point for me. Anyway. I'll be back with questions once I've dug in.
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