 Senior Member ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 4,890 Joined: Jun 1999 From: Leeds, UK |
#25▸ Posted: 01 Oct 2002, 12:22 GMT
Because "scorpion = Scorpio" is not obvious in 9500 BCE. It is a projection with a television budget.
Animals on pillars do not automatically become constellations, and constellations do not become our later zodiac by wishing. If someone wants an astronomical claim, give me: the exact pillar, the exact sightline, the horizon point, the date range, the precession correction, and the reason a fox is a star rather than a fox. Otherwise we are just stapling a modern sky map to a Neolithic stone.
There may well be sky knowledge here. I would be astonished if people who lived outdoors had none. But "they watched the sky" is not the same claim as "they encoded my favourite catastrophe theory." The first is human. The second is a sales pitch.
the ancients were brilliant -- that is the headline |
 Member ◆◆ Posts: 350 Joined: Sep 2001 From: York, UK |
#26▸ Posted: 06 Oct 2002, 16:05 GMT
Small technical note from an archaeology postgrad who spends too much time around stone: soft limestone is not butter, but it is not granite either. Flint will work it. Slowly. Repetitively. With maintenance. That matters because people keep turning "no metal tools" into "impossible."
No metal tools means you look harder at labour organisation and tool wear. It does not mean you call the Atlanteans and ask if they left a receipt.
York · ochre under the nails |
 Senior Member ◆◆◆◆ Posts: 4,980 Joined: Jul 1999 From: Norwich, UK |
#27▸ Posted: 13 Oct 2002, 18:40 GMT
I have been using this thread as a private exercise: take a claim, remove the glamour, see whether the remaining structure is still interesting. Gobekli passes that test repeatedly.
No Atlantis, still interesting. No aliens, still interesting. No global priesthood, still interesting. No solved meaning, still interesting. It is almost a relief to find an anomaly that grows larger when stripped of decoration rather than smaller.
I have begun drafting a short piece on ritual as a stabilising selection pressure. No institution is waiting for it, which is perhaps why I can write it plainly.
Norwich · behaviour run long enough becomes bone |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 1,990 Joined: Nov 1998 From: seat 14C, somewhere |
#28▸ Posted: 19 Oct 2002, 10:12 GMT
Back through Sanliurfa museum before flying west. The small finds do something the big pillars cannot. Blades, beads, bits of animal, ordinary things that make the site less like a stage set and more like a place where people had sore hands and meals.
I bought three postcards and none of them explain anything. Good postcards, then.
seat 14C · I go, I stand in them, I photograph |
 Moderator · Asia Desk ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 14,002 Joined: Sep 1999 From: Yokohama, JP |
#29▸ Posted: 27 Oct 2002, 20:36 JST
A short excavation note is circulating and I have already seen it misquoted twice. The new point is not "they found agriculture at Gobekli." The point is that the broader region shows increasing management of plants and animals around the same horizon. That is exactly the interesting zone: gathering, ritual, feasting, settlement, cultivation, none of them politely waiting in separate boxes.
Please stop using "before farming" as if it means "before complexity." That phrase has done enough damage.
Yokohama · geology, JST |
 New Member ◆ Posts: 66 Joined: Jan 2002 From: Bristol, UK |
#30▸ Posted: 02 Nov 2002, 15:02 GMT
I think I understand why the feast idea matters now. It is not "they had spare food so they built a temple." It might be "they needed food because the gathering had become too important to miss."
That is somehow stranger than Atlantis. Also harder to put on a paperback cover, which may be the problem.
astronomy club, trying to learn slowly |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 612 Joined: Sep 2001 From: Durham, UK |
#31▸ Posted: 09 Nov 2002, 18:25 GMT
KeplerKid, yes. The feast is not a garnish on the theory; it is the engine. To gather people at scale, one must feed them. To feed them reliably, one begins to manage plants, animals, seasons, obligations. The sacred demand creates an economic demand, and the economic demand feeds back into the sacred gathering.
This is not romantic. It is almost bureaucratic. The first city may have begun as a calendar of obligations before it became a market.
Durham · the ceremony makes the city |
 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#32▸ Posted: 16 Nov 2002, 01:20 CST
One caution on the "sacred first" line: it explains social organisation, not supernatural truth.
People can organise brilliantly around a false cosmology. They do it constantly. The fact that ritual can build a world does not mean the ritual describes the world accurately. That is not a jab at Marlow. It is just where the next bad inference will try to breed.
Chicago · extraordinary timeline, ordinary evidence |