 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 884 Joined: Feb 1995 From: Manchester, UK |
#1▸ Posted: 12 Jul 2000, 09:12 GMT
Right, I'm opening this because the Baghdad Battery keeps surfacing in every fringe forum and it deserves a straight accounting. Konig pulled it from a Parthian-era dig near Seleucia around 1938 -- a clay jar, copper cylinder inside, iron rod down the middle, bitumen seal. Two camps: Camp A says it's a galvanic cell, maybe used for electroplating. Camp B says it's a scroll case or storage vessel and we're reading too much into geometry. I want the strongest version of each argument, no hand-waving. What actually supports electroplating as a real practice? And what does the archaeology tell us about this thing's real purpose?
|
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 176 Joined: Feb 1996 From: Norway |
#2▸ Posted: 14 Jul 2000, 06:36 GMT
I'll give Camp A its due: yes, you can produce a voltage with this setup. Fill it with vinegar or acidic juice and you get a galvanic cell -- I've replicated it, got about 0.8 volts, enough for a small current. The chemistry works. Copper and iron in an electrolyte, electrons flow, Faraday doesn't care if it's 2000 years old or last Tuesday.
But "can work" and "was used" are oceans apart. Where are the companion cells? A single jar gives you peanuts for electroplating -- you'd need them in series, dozens, documented. Where's the workshop? The wires? The plated objects clearly tied to this? We have zero of that. One ambiguous pot does not an industry make.
electrical engineer |
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 612 Joined: Sep 2001 From: Durham, UK |
#3▸ Posted: 16 Jul 2000, 04:00 GMT
The context settles it for me. This jar was found with scrolls. Seleucia-Ctesiphon was a major administrative site. A sealed clay vessel with an iron core makes sense as a container for documents; you'd want to control humidity and pests. Copper and bitumen are practical sealing materials. There's nothing in the stratigraphy that says "electroplating workshop." We're imposing a modern technology fantasy onto an object that has a mundane explanation sitting right there in the ground.
archaeologist |
 Member ◆◆ Posts: 73 Joined: Nov 1997 From: UK |
#4▸ Posted: 18 Jul 2000, 01:24 GMT
This is the classic replication trap and Halvorsen walked into it with his eyes open. Yes, you can make a voltage in a jar. Yes, the Parthians could have. "Possible" is not "probable," and it's not "evidenced." We can replicate the Antikythera mechanism's gearing, but that doesn't make every gear-shaped bronze object an astronomical computer. Replication proves the mechanism is feasible. It does not prove it was used. The burden is on electroplating: show me the wires, the plated objects, the workshop.
|
 Member ◆◆ Posts: 61 Joined: Jul 1996 From: Peru |
#5▸ Posted: 19 Jul 2000, 22:49 GMT
If they were electroplating -- if this was a real, functioning practice -- where is the infrastructure? Electroplating requires consistency and iteration. You don't stumble onto it once and forget it. You'd see it spread: multiple sites, different designs, wires, electrodes in situ, plated copper or gold on iron. Archaeology is not kind to hidden technologies. We see what people did, the workshops, the failures, the evolution of technique. We see none of that here. One jar and a lot of wishful thinking.
|
 Resident Skeptic ◆◆◆◆◆ Posts: 16,720 Joined: Apr 1998 From: Chicago, US |
#6▸ Posted: 21 Jul 2000, 20:13 GMT
The burden is straightforward. One object, ambiguous function, two explanations: electroplating, a complex process we have zero supporting evidence for, or a storage vessel, a function that fits the context, the site, and the materials. The single object cannot establish a lost industry. Occam doesn't forbid electricity to the ancients -- it forbids explaining one ambiguous pot by inventing an entire invisible electroplating apparatus with no other trace. Simple explanation wins. Scroll case. Storage.
|
Anonymous Coward  (unregistered) User ID: 97770700 From: a VPN, probably |
#7▸ Posted: 23 Jul 2000, 17:37 GMT
You're all missing the obvious. The ancients HAD electricity and knew far more than we give them credit for. This jar is PROOF, and the fact that we can't find the workshop just means they were careful. They hid it. How convenient that the evidence is missing -- that's exactly what you'd expect if someone didn't want us to know.
|
 Member ◆◆◆ Posts: 884 Joined: Feb 1995 From: Manchester, UK |
#8▸ Posted: 25 Jul 2000, 15:02 GMT
Right. So where we land: the jar can produce a small voltage. That's established. But "can" doesn't cross into "did," and it doesn't explain why one object survives with no workshop, no wires, no plated artifacts. The archaeology points elsewhere -- scroll storage fits the context better. The burden sits on electroplating, and the evidence doesn't meet it. As for hidden knowledge: if they had a real electroplating practice and we can't find it, Occam says we invented the practice, not that they hid it. We're left with an ingenious object, possibly a galvanic cell, possibly a clever jar, and no way to know which.
|